IGB 3rd Dato Arthur Tan Malaysian Chess Open Player list

hi gilachess,
when will u be launching the new gilachess webiste?
really can’t wait for DATMO 2006 to commence. there’s already 20 players rated above 2400 in the current list. nothing beats that!!
why aren’t they any of the malaysian olympiad members in the list (yet)? anas, mok n yee weng definitely have good chances of scoring IM norms.
cheers all

The participants list shows a shocking revelation. DATMO is contested by nearly 100% (well, nearly 90%) foreigners. Malaysians like Kamalludin, Chow Mon Ben, Hafiz, to name a few should be playing in DATMO but chose not to. Where are the other top Malaysians?

MCF must find out the reason why Malaysians voluntarily avoid the stronger tournament. Is the reason because of the high entry fee or an acknowledgment of our own low standards?

It does not bode well for a Malaysian Open to cater for mainly foreign participation. Furthermore, the list of players is only mediocre at best. I believe we had much better foreign participation in the past when China, Indonesia, Phillipines, etc sent their then current top players year after year.

Is this what DATMO is supposed to be? I hope not!

To answer iceberg…

During Fischer’s time, 2600 represented the ratings of super GM’s of the day, including world-title contenders. Now we have super GM’s in the mid 2700’s and some have crossed 2800. I think there has been a 150 points inflation to the current FIDE ratings, meaning most of the 2400 participants are in the 2250-2300 range only (adjusted for inflation).

Any comments?

mate,

during fischer’s time, the superGMs were 2700ish. fischer was a strong 2750 player, and was a credible 2780 when he retired.

http://www.fide.com/ratings/card.phtml?event=2000016

what about times before elo was introduced in the 1960s? Prof Elo himself published a book indicating players like capablanca, botvinnik, lasker n tal all over the 2700 mark.

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=1160

or, if the statistical data doesn’t seem concrete enough, probably u would have heard of jeff sonas and his acknowledged work compiling data of great players since the 1850s. steinitz, lasker, alekhine were all over the 2700 mark.

http://db.chessmetrics.com/CM2/Summary.asp?Params=1840AASSSSS3S000000000000111000000000000010100

yes, i agree that the ratings might have undergone inflation since the past. but not to the extent that u disregard the capabilities of players today. One cannot look at a sequence of moves and say, “That performance is 2039.” Performance can only be inferred from wins, draws and losses. players today have earned their ratings by playing well throughout hundreds of thousands of games.

mate,

philippines are sending in antonio rogello, mariano nelson, n mark paragua.

indonesia are sending in susanto megaranto, irwanto sadikin, im tirto, n taufik halay.

myanmar are sending zaw htun, Kyaw Tun n Myo Naing

they are the crop of top ten rated in their respective countries. i wasnt too sure which other event in malaysia had attracted more foreign participation in the past.

mate,

it may be true that some top malaysians are not willing to play in these grand events like DATMO. but i believe they have their own reasons.

we can’t just pressure them, nor should we shower them with flaks of criticism whenever they underperform. there are other things in life that must be attended to besides chess. such as, getting a degree and getting a well-paid job.

oh yes, btw i would rather watch spectacular games by sub2500 players, rather than a 10move draw btw two superGMs or megaGMs whatever u call them.

im keeping an eye on paragua, barsov or susanto to produce flashes of brilliance. wesley so should do quite well too.

If you do not know who played in Malaysia before, I believe you have not played chess for a long enough time.

Anand was here before. So were the very top Chinese, Indonesian and Phillipino players (the whole lot), not mere top tens.Myanmar and Vietnam were non existent then yet as far as chess was concerned.

To be frank, with due respects, Paragua is not a super GM YET. To be that, you need to be rated 2700 now. Yes, a 2600 rating would have qualified for super GM status maybe 10-15 years ago, but not now. Tell me who you take if he plays a top 50 in the world today. Nevertheless, I realy hope he can go far in the near future.

It is not whether you enjoy watching 2400 players whack each other to death, rather it is why we cannot now attract the top players, at least from Asia. Do we know the reasons?

Everybody has to work and study. Nicol David also has to study. But to offer that as the reason for not playing year after year after year is not acceptable. You are playing mostly in your own back-yard. Like I said before, can you imagine the immense hardships faced by those aspiring players in China, India, etc?

Think again…don’t you think Malaysians are too pampered. That is perhaps the reason why no one has become a GM yet.

The other is lack of publicity. Why no one even reported (not to say regularly) in the popular press when the Commonwealth games were held in Malaysia, I couldn’t understand. Please tell me who reports the National championships.

I do not know what you were trying to say regarding the top players of the past. If you were saying the top players past were 2700 , I do not dispute you. That’s why I said Paragua is not a super GM. If adjusted, his rating would perhaps be 2400 compared to those players you mentioned.

Tell me who are the really accomplished players on the DATMO list, whose names you recognise in your sleep. No Anand, Kramnic, Topalov… not even a Torre. By the way Torre was very popular those days.

What I mean is there are few, if any name you recognise 10 miles away. That’s why I say we need to know the reasons why we are not there yet and not just keep giving excuses years after year.

GilaChess, sorry I said the popular press……. Newspapers, TV, radio. Internet reporting (I agree you have done a fantastic job) is read by very few AS YET.
Wish you were around last time when the Commonwealth tournament was around.

I think even the Internet (in Malaysia) was not ready then.

number 1. are u talking about anand in 1989 in genting highlands? wasnt he a 2500/2600 player THEN? everyone starts from the bottom u know.

number 2. why are u so infatuated by the need to have superGMs flocking to play in the country? u keep stating individials like anand, kramnik, topalov. would an event be mediocre withount these household names? of course no.

number 3. why do u keep criticizing DATMO and other events when it is a good progress for us? i was irritated when u kept giving destructive criticism about local tournaments. have u been directly involved / supported any of these events? what good / benefit would u give chess in malaysia by making these comments on this website? wouldn’t it be better to make yourself heard to MCF and hand in a proposal? are u willing to skip work and travel afar like gilachess just to report on tournaments? u have those answers.

number 4. i have not been in the country for the past 4 years but i am grateful to be kept up to date by results n postings by gilachess, and now, petak64 n stonemaster. didnt miss a tournament, let it be the nationals, scholastics, olympiads, everything. thank u very much.

om that’s all. fullstop. im not going to write anything anymore. sorry gilachess, for any offensive remarks. its just that im infuriated that everyone is currently awaiting the month of august (with u having to put in time, energy n expense to promote on this website) - n all of a sudden someone comes along to tarnish its reputation n spoil the fun. pen off.

I asked why so few local players are on the playing list of DATMO which is THE MALAYSIAN OPEN and you get so irritated. Don’t you ever want to see Malaysians play at the highest level in their own country?

If you have been away from Malaysia for 4 years I can understand why you can’t care less why DATMO is not attracting Malaysians to play. It doesn’t really bother you if Malaysia stagnates at the bottom of the chess ladder, does it? As it is, I have not discredited anyone (much less GilaChess nor even you). I asked a pertinent question and you gave no answers but kept swearing your head off.

where is IM MAS ?

As the list went as of 9/8/06, ONLY IM Jimmy Liew has entered as a recognisable Malaysian player of repute.What happened to all the national masters, FM’s,FIDE rated players etc? Are all of them having exams or working overtime or just plain couldn’t afford the fee? Isn’t anyone interested to know why this is the VERY SAD state of Malaysian chess.

Even if there is a sudden surge of late entries, I cannot see how Mlaysians can outnumber foreigners this coming DATMO. AS it stands, it is 4-47.

We want these absentee Malaysians to speak up and not let others answer on their behalf. WHY ARE YOU NOT PLAYING? CAN THE ORGANISATION BE IMPROVED SO THAT YOU CAN PLAY? SPEAK UP for the good of Malaysian chess!

yes, IMHO i understand ur point. i get what u mean. i got pretty carried away. lets not let emotions get in the way. different ppl have different opinions which is important for improvement. sometimes we forget that. as long as its for the good of malaysian chess, then its well worth the talk. regards.

Who is this “malaysian” fella? he sounds like an idiot living in a time warp. his comments show his ignorance about chess ratings of players past and present and developments over the years.

Tennis, golf, football or badminton for that matter have seen a huge increase in standards of play especially in terms of the number of players able to play at the highest level compared to years past. In golf, it is said that it is unlikely that Nicklaus’ feat of 18 or so majors can be repeated because of so many world class players now compared to Nicklaus’ time (although Tiger Woods’ is trying to disprove this theory).

In tennis, until recently (i.e. emergence of Federer) no male player came close to achieving a Grand Slam last achieved by Rod Laver 30 years ago. The generally accepted reason being the huge increase in world class players with a chance to win grand slam events compared to Laver’s time.

Same goes for badminton. It is unlikely that the same player winning 4 or 5 All-England titles like in the days of Wong Peng Soon, Eddy Choong and Rudy Hartono is well and over. And this is there are now so many players playing at standards higher than these greats from the past and competing for so few prestigious titles.

Same thing with chess. Any of the current top 20 players in the world now will not disgrace themselves against Fischer. In fact they have a very good chance of thrashing the 2780-rated Fischer of 1992. With the technology, wider availability of knowledge, and training techniques, there is now a larger number of players who are able to play at 2600 , 2700 or even 2800 standard using the “1970s yardstick”. Thus for this “malaysian” fella to argue that there is an inflation of the ratings to the extent stated by him shows his ignorance of developments in the chess field since the “good old days”.

I think people ought to behave in a civil manner when they post on a public forum. Please do not call people idiots when it is a matter of opinion. You don’t agree with me? Fine. Didn’t you read iceberg’s posts regarding the estimation of ratings of past champions?

There is no way to prove whether you are right or wrong whether the current top players are better or worse than those of the past. If you assume a tennis player now performs better, don’t you know much depends on the equipment he uses. Ask any one of the current top players to use a wooden racket and he will say you are nuts.

Don’t you know golf ball/club technology plays a great part in the modern game. Similarly, you are surely aware many chess players now cannot do without computers. Do you think they are really better than players of the past?

Anyway, that is not the main point. The main point is why only 4 Malaysians have signed up for DATMO as at 9/8/06 and surely you are not one of them. If you are fide rated, why aren’t you there? This is the pertinent question.

IMHO, the organisation is good and the venue cannot be faulted. It is the players who have problems? Why won’t you address this point rather than debate on irrelevant matters. And please be more open minded if you want Malaysian chess to progress.

As a follow up, this may sound very insulting. This DATMO can enter the Malaysian book of records for an open tournament with almost zero local participation.

But I SINCERELY hope the organisers can round up more local participation in the next few days although it is just not their fault no locals want to take part. The problem is with the players.

I HAVE ACTED AS THE BAD MAN HERE as no other people seem willing to do the shitty job. I will definitely get all the angry responses and be called names…. but please remember to give a reason why you think few Malaysians want to play in their own national championship which is well organised and held in a good venue.

OVER TO YOU.

At least I am posting without hiding behind a pseudonym. Why don’t you “Malaysian” identify yourself. Not introducing yourself properly when making the comments and demands as you have is insulting and shows disrespect to the audience where I come from.

I would like to know if “Malaysian” is fide-rated and playing in DATMO before I give my comments why I am not playing in it. Yes, I am fide-rated and I have my reasons for not playing in DATMO. Instead I have signed up for AmBank Challenge.

And I think “Malaysian” got another of his facts wrong by referring to DATMO as our own national championship. Our own national championship is the National Closed which I support both by paying to play myself and paying for my kids to play.

I have always wondered why some of our top players do not support our own national championship. But these players like Mas, Mok, Jimmy, etc still get automatic selection to events like the 2003 & 2005 SEA games and Olympiads even though these fellas do not support our own national championship.

And please “Malaysian” whoever you are, do not say that the above is irrelevant as you were the one to broach the subject of our own national championship. This year’s national championship was held in TCN (a reasonable venue) and was well organised.

Another thing is that it was our “Malaysian” friend who first brought up the subject of ratings, Fischer, etc. My earlier post was in response to such comments posted by “Malaysian”

Strange that it was alright to him if this “Malaysian” fella post such matters. But when I commented on same, he says that my comments were irrelevant matters. I feel insulted.

How do you hold a proper discussion with someone like that who moreover did not identify himself to the forum.

Is there a rule saying I must reveal who I am? Please don’t create your own law on a public forum. Have I insulted you by calling you names? Most certainly not! You expect people to know who is “edfong”? Most certainly your tone shows great disrespect.

I am NOT FIDE-RATED. Does that disqualify me from speaking out? You have time to play in the Ambank Challenge. That is your right and proper assessment of your ability as I assume you have no confidence in playing in DATMO.

A national open is also a national championship. Since when only the closed tournament is the sole national championship? Then don’t call it the “Malaysian Open”… just DATO will do. I am not interested if you participated in the National Closed with your family. I ASK THOSE WHO DO NOT PLAY IN DATMO TO EXPRESS THEIR FEELINGS and you tell me “but I played in National Closed and playing in Ambank Challenge. What kind of answer is that?

PLEASE try to find out the real reason? Don’t you want to know as well?

You are talking sense as to why some of our top players do not want to participate. However IM Jimmy Liew is playing in DATMO. I have great respect for him in doing so.

Please read properly. I have never said the organisation was bad and the venue was no good. On the contrary, I complimented both. Don’t you read before you write?

The subject on ratings was mainly brought on by iceberg. My comment was the foreign participation is not too strong… You don’t agree? But please don’t insult me even if you don’t.

As a qualified IA, you don’t seem to be able to grasp the gist of the point under discussion. You still do not understand what the main topic is and I say it again…

WHY MALAYSIANS DO NOT SUPPORT THEIR NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP BY PLAYING IN DATMO? Many fide-rated players have time to play in the Challenge!! and the response is quite good. WHY?

Firstly, I am not a qualified IA. Secondly I shall not waste time responding to arguments like Malaysia has more than one national championship other than to say that somehow I cannot bring myself to accept Wang Hao as Malaysia’s national champion for 2005.

And I don’t really want to lecture “Malaysian” on the difference between good and bad manners in internet discussions and foruming since he is so blissfully unaware of such matters. There are no laws, there are only etiquette.

But for the benefit of other readers, I’ll present the following. Several Malaysian chess players, including me, had broached the question of entry fees structure with organisers of the first DATMO (which has remained the same since).

The reply, which was explained publicly, was that Dato’ TCN wants a high level tournament with good (or reasonable prizes) to attract strong players like GMs and top IMs who maybe would chase the top prizes, and untitled IM-norm and GM-norm chasers. To increase the norm opportunities, the entry-fee was structured such that lowly-rated or unrated players would have to pay through their nose (by Malaysian standards) if such players insist on playing in DATMO.

Thus the policy was bascially to discourage under-2200 rated Malaysian players from playing in DATMO. To make up for this policy, the 2003 Chevrolet Challenge was conceived as one more FIDE-rated event for Malaysians players which we thank Dato’ for. DATMO is not meant for under-2200 Malaysian players.

We must realise that Dato’ is a big thinker. He wants to see Malaysians chess players do well. Dato’ has undeniably done a lot for Malaysian chess and chess players but has been disappointed that the general standard of Malaysian chess players has not improved all these years. It is now for interested Malaysian players to improve their own standard so that they are good enough to qualify for the reasonable “entry fees” to play in DATMO.

As for our 2200 and 2300 players, I believe they may have very good personal reasons not to play. And I do NOT think they owe any explanation to anybody why they are not playing. Certainly not in response to rude demands in a self-confessed insulting manner from an anonymous fella like “Malaysian”.

My personal view is that RM450-RM720 depending on whether you are

continuation from previous post:

My personal view is that RM450-RM720 depending on whether you are

My personal view is that RM450-RM720 depending on whether you are

My personal view is that RM450-RM720 depending on whether you are below 2100 or unrated is a lot of money for a Malaysian, especially if you are paying out of your own pocket. (I believe most of the foreign players from Philippines, Indonesia or China are sponsored).

To justify the cost to play with basically little expected financial return, a player has to be serious and be prepared with proper pre-tournament training and conditioning and experience so as to be able to benefit from playing a series of games against much stronger players.

But I do not think many Malaysian players are in this position and those wanted to play and opted for the AnBank Challenge probably made the wise decision. The alternative is wasting precious money getting thrashed in DATMO and bad memories and no gains. (Of course if a player, or his/her Mummy or Daddy has money to burn, then it is a different story).

My personal reason for playing in AmBank Challenge is to contribute to the pool of rated players in this event. This was prompted when I noticed the low number of rated players in the 9 August list.

Hopefully my participation allow unrated players more opportunites to meet rated players and get a provisional rating. Increasing the number of FIDE-rated Malaysian players, has for a long time, been a pet project of mine.

I am badly out-of-touch with the game, out-of-practice and totally unprepared. I do not expect to do well but look forward to having some fun.

P.S.
Errata: “2003 Chevrolet Challenge” in earlier post should read “2004 Malaysian Chess Challenge”. I hope I got it right.

If you are one of those remotely connected with the organisation of DATMO, I don’t understand why there is no hint of any frustration on your part at the low level of Malaysian participation and be able to expressly regret publicly. Tell us frankly if you are satisfied with just 4 Malaysians on board DATMO.

Wang Hao was Malaysian Open Champion 2005. Whether you decide to accept him as Malaysian champion, it is up to you. Do you have a rule saying Malaysian Champion must be Malaysian?

Perhaps he is not aware, but just go tell the good old Dato TCN only 4 Malaysians are playing in DATMO but scores are playing in Ambank Chanllenge and I am sure the first question he will ask is “Why?”. Can you answer him that question? He is a great thinker and solver of problems. If you keep avoiding the issue, I am afraid I cannot say that of you.

Tell me, are Kamalludin, Hafiz and Chow not fit to play in DATMO? What they have to pay is minimal and yet they chose to shun DATMO for A REASON. Go find out instead of hiding from the real world. Dozens of NMs, fide-rated palyers and a few FM’s and IM’s have the same idea. Don’t you want to know?

GilaChess,

There are now 8 Malaysians playing in DATMO. Congratulations! That’s exceeding 10%!

I don’t wish to be sarcastic or disrespectful. I have great respect for you, GilaChess, but my point is WHY sixty odd locals can play in AmBank Challenge but want to forego having a try at chess at the highest local level.

At this rate where do you think Malaysian Chess is heading? IMHO something has gone wrong somewhere. As explained by edfong, it was Dato TNC’s wish only to have suitably qualified Malaysians play at DATMO so as not to lower the prestige of the tournament. Perhaps he expected too good a response from local players and set the bar too high. As it turned out, only 8 brave souls have accepted his offer. I am sure Dato would be as disappointed too as I am. BUT, I don’t see any other person feeling the same. This is very sad indeed.

Instead of trying to take the bull by the horns some choose to dismiss it is as a non-issue. The important thing to do now is to find ways to remedy the situation. There is still time yet but unfortunately no one wants to do anything if comments so far reflect the feelings of the organisers as well.

I feel it will be a national embaressment at the prize-giving when all prizes go to foreign hands. Even the good old Dato may feel bad giving out the prizes. And I can’t imagine the organisers sitting there smiling and clapping as if nothing is wrong!

Would you be clapping enthusiastically as well?

The fees very expensive. Half of my salary. This is the main reason for me not to play in DATMO. Players need to take a long leave and donate their money. That’s terrible for me. Even one day rapid tournament cost me roughly RM50. 5 days will cost me a lot more.

Hai sori saya cakap Bahasa Melayu..Saya punya pendapat sendiri..Saya ini budak belasahan dan saya hidup susah dari kecil lagi..Walaubagaimanapun saya tetap ikhtiar cari duit(halal) untuk masuk tourney fide rated..saya tidak pernah menyesal sejak 3 tahun lepas..hampir 1000 habis disebabkan 2 national closed,2 royal selangor 2 malaysia open tourney..saya bukan fide rated..ibu bapa saya hanya beri duit poket 30 ringgit sebulan percaya atau tidak terpulang..tidak termasuk duit sewa rumah..ini kerana saya minat chess..jangan fikir nak cari norm jaga norm..taknak masuk tourney..kalaula saya handal seperti mok dah saya kumpul duit banyak2 masuk tourney kat eropah..semua ini sebab minat..malaysia player saya tengok dididik dengan sikap suke duduk dibawah tempurung..xde iniasetif sendiri..tengok hashim sabar..join bangkok tourney tahun ni walaupun turun beberapa point..tak kisah asalkan ada nama malaysia..saya kalau baca surat khabar,bila pasal sukan kat luar malaysia. kalau nama malaysia muncul,rasa bangga,bukan nak cakap poyola..saya kecewa sangat ramai player malaysia xnak join malaysia open..bila malaysia panggil jadi wakil,,baru nak datang..please..i love malaysia..but saya tak suke orang pentingkan diri sendiri..dua hari lepas baru saya ada cerita impian saya nak join malaysia open dengan member saya yang ada fide rated 2100 ..nak tau ape iniasetif yang saya ade?saya sanggup simpan gaji 1 bulan untuk daftar malaysia open..

GilaChess, nice try. This is what a forum should be…. not an arena for self-denial and name-calling.Not that I bother any, but I think you should police this site to prevent misuse, even by your good friends.

I agree with your analysis of the situation, but what is your proposed remedy?

Now, people appear more interested to win money than to gain playing experience against strong players. Unfortunately, it did not make the situation any better when the amount that can be lost is large and almost near 100% certainty when you play in DATMO.

What is done is to offer category prizes for Malaysians only, but this is a half-hearted measure as the amount offered is relatively small. I suggest here a substantial prize fund for locals only.

The best then is to find sponsors, but there are no takers (or givers). Another way is to reduce entry fees for locals, but some fear that it would encourage hundreds of midgets to play amongst giants!

Maybe, another way is to offer best local performers in such a strong tournament a chance to play for the country. As it is there are few selection tounaments and some players even have the privilege of automatic selection.

Another suggestion is to offer, locals only, gift vouchers in quantity to compensate for the entry fee, and I am sure these can be secured through the good offices of Dato TCN and MVMM if you ask.

There are numerous variations, some practical others not. BUT, the main thing is to push more locals to play in DATMO to improve themselves. Isn’t this what the main sponsor wants?